Radically reimagining the Goths (rambling post and hopefully discussion)

First off, the Goths are one of my favorite civilizations in the game, not only because they are very easy to get the hang of, and late game with them can often be, at least at lower levels, a piece of cake - no siege to worry about, no moving your precious knights away from the pikemen, just build a thousand barracks and open the floodgates. And just as the Vikings fall off in Imperial as the Viking Age comes to a close historically, Goth victories consist of besting technologically superior civilizations with overwhelming numbers, as they did in history.

But as everyone knows, the Goths have been notoriously difficult to balance, being at the higher levels of play either comically powerful or or totally useless with almost no middle ground in between. The new Supplies technology also eroded at their uniqueness, making the infantry line comparably cheaper for everyone, not just the Goths. This last patch brought a pretty significant buff to the Goths' early game in the form of an extra villager (or quicker feudal time) and enough gold to train six militia. The goal of most players who find themselves against the Goths, especially when playing civs who rely heavily on their archers, is to stop the Goths in the beginning, when they're weak and definitely before they are able to roll out their Huskarls.

Here is the root of the Goths' balancing woes. They are incredibly powerful in the mid to late game, provided they can get there. The idea previously was to give them weak bonuses in the early game to offset their later game strength. But if their earlier game is weaker, as we can probably agree it should be, then they stood very little chance when up against civs with a stronger early game. Too strong in the early game, though, and there's no way to punish them and deny them their late game power. And unlike the Turks for example who are powerful late game so long as they have an ample supply of gold, the Goths thrive with less gold.

Maybe it is too early to tell whether getting Loom for free is a good choice or if it gives their early game too much of a boost while leaving their late game untouched. And I'm certainly not the one to make the call, I don't play the game at a high level at all, full disclosure. I do think the change is a step in the right direction - it's not realistic to leave all of the Goths' bonuses for late game, since without any help getting there, it would just remain a bad pick on maps like 1v1 Arabia.

My crackpot ideas for radically reimagining the civilization involve changing their identity from that of a ticking time bomb to one with sizeable early game advantages which, if (and only if) they are utilized well, would lead the Goths to a strong late game. I welcome all comments and insight from players more familiar with the game than myself - especially when it comes to what would need to be taken away from a civilization with these bonuses.

I don't claim that this is a comprehensive list of changes. I don't even talk about nerfs here at all. But taking inspiration from idea of the Goths and other non-Goth Germanic tribes, like the ones who defeated the Romans at Teutoberg, as less developed raiders who took advantage of weak moments in the lifetimes of their technologically superior rivals, my ideas are as follows:

  1. Outposts have a significantly greater line of sight starting in the Dark Age. The idea here would be that it would be very difficult to surprise a Goth player, who ought to be able to use his better knowledge of the terrain to prepare appropriate counterattacks against a technologically superior foe. Better and more easily obtained scouting knowledge would also mean a Goth player should know where his opponent is vulnerable.
  2. Skirmishers, Spearmen +2 LoS, trained 25% faster. Skirmishers available at the Barracks. This bonus would enable a Goth player to muster the appropriate counters in time, provided he was taking advantage of his outposts.
  3. Infantry have attack bonus against villagers. Making their drush more threatening and the brief amount of time that a militia or man-at-arms has to attack a villager before it runs away more impactful.

Obviously their later game prowess would need to be adjusted accordingly, but the idea here is that their famous flood should be viable if and only if they are able to do enough damage in the early game to slow their opponent down in comparison to themselves, as opposed to gifting them a strong position in the mid-late to late game for nothing - should turtling until you can roll out huskarls and cheaper infantry be a viable strategy for this civilization of pagan raiders? I say definitively no, but worry that a free loom and potential villager lead can lead to this.

If you read this far, thoughts? I'm already aware this is purely a thought experiment and will not be implemented.

submitted by /u/Garbo_Gurbs
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