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Hi all! This is an issue that has occurred to all of us (except maybe a few newbies): You let Mongol enemy get to Imperial Age, upgrade and mass Mangudai, Hussars and Siege, and you’ve no idea on how to deal with that. While we all agree that the best way to beat Mongols is a strong push on Castle Age or early Imperial before they mass 20+ Mangudai, many of us don’t have the ability or confidence to carry out effectively a Castle Age push. Don’t misunderstand me, letting Mongols get to FU Mangudai and Hussars is very close to a GG, but there may be something that could be done to leave this push ineffective. I’ve been working on a while on how to deal with late game Mongol army composition, knowing that there are many situations where, if microed effectively, the Mongol player will still beat our army. But if you feel inspired, you may turn the tide and scrap a difficult win. We’ll delve into different army compositions for each of the civs that could give you a chance of victory. I won’t consider mirror matches. Please do not think I hate Mongols. I just want to give a bit of brainstorming to people who think that when Mongols get to Imperial Age, the game is forfeit :-) Mongol late game army and strategy: Mongols get a crazy early game bonus for hunting. With their higher LOS for scout cavalry line, they can “lose” a little time pushing deer to the TC to get a massive food eco advantage. That lets them advance fast to Feudal Age (below 20pop) and open with m@a or scouts. Both openings can cripple our economy if not walled correctly. Mongols can follow with archers (don’t have any bonus towards them, but it may be interesting for small walled enemies, and to start researching techs that will later be useful for Mangudai), or skip Feudal wars and go to Castle Age. It could be a bit dangerous, because once the hunt is depleted, Mongols don’t have more bonuses towards eco, and can suffer in early Castle Age (that’s when they are the weakest). In late Castle Age, you’ll need to be massing Mangudai, so they need somehow to transition from your Feudal army to the Castle unit. Xbows seem the shortest way, since they need most of the techs needed for Mangudai. They can also stop Xbow production (especially after Bodkin Arrow and Ballistics) and do an intermediate switch into Cavalry Archers, who are very good since they fire 30% faster. Meanwhile they can also tech into Light Cavalry and pick relics with the help of their LOS. That would mean also researching Bloodlines and Husbandry, which are necessary for CA and Mangudai. At some point, they’ll need to start mining stone. When the first Castle is up, it is the time to start massing Mangudai and decide where to start raiding. After that, they’ll need to secure your resources, get at least a second castle, and advance to Imperial while raiding with Mangudai. It will be a good time to take map control with Castle on hills (which also help massing Mangudai). In Imperial Age, they’ll try to upgrade your units until the late game army. Let’s take a look on them. Elite Mangudai (55W 65G, 80HP, 12 attack, +5 vs Siege, +3 vs spearmen, 4 melee armor, 4 pierce armor, 7 range, 1.54 speed) could not be called “tanky”. That means that many units could in theory kill 1v1 an unmicroed Mangudai “easily”. But of course, that shouldn’t be the case. Mangudai should go together and be intensively microed. In general, any melee unit that is slower than Mangudai or ranged unit outranged by Mangudai will have a hard time countering them, and their use will become situational against Mongols. Of course, units that are faster than Mangudai don’t care too much about micro, but the rest of them are slower and can be hit-and-run forever. We’ll consider later a few exceptions to this rule. Siege becomes a far worse option, since Mangudai’s attack bonus vs siege renders Rams, Onagers, Heavy Scorpions, Trebuchets, BBCs and some Unique Units very weak against them. This is totally opposite to generic Heavy Cavalry archers, who struggle against all these units. The companion to Mangudai will always be Hussars. These lack the last blacksmith armor, but make up for it with a bonus for HP (80F, 118HP, 11 attack, +12 vs Monks, 2 melee armor, 4 pierce armor). While these stats make them more vulnerable to ranged units than FU generic Hussars, they are much tankier against melee units, and are used as a meatshield for Mangudai and siege, while these are firing from behind. They can also snipe any well protected siege and Skirmishers, who pose a threat to Mangudai. With or without Drill, Siege Rams, Siege Onagers and Trebuchets will be used to destroy buildings, and Onagers can protect Mangudai from ranged units. If Drill is researched, the Mongol push will be faster and more difficult to stop. We must not forget raids. Hussars and Mangudai are very reliable eco raiders and with little micro can harass vill working sites. Mobility here becomes a nightmare because they can separate 3-4 units from their main army to cripple your economy. So, what could each of the civs do against that? We’ll start considering cavalry (+Camel) units. Mounted melee units: I haven’t considered Elephants because they’re too slow and Mangudai can micro them to death. An exception could be new Howdah Burmese Elephants, who only take 3 damage per Mangudai shot to a total of 107 arrows required to kill them. The use of Battle (or War) Elephants is too situational in 1v1, and should only be considered in closed maps like Arena. Massing Elephants is too expensive and will only favor Mongols getting to post-imperial FU army comp. Anyway, there’s room for a surprising Battle Elephant rush with Malay in mid-Castle Age, when Mongols are the “weakest”. A Burmese Battle Elephant + Skirm + BBC slow push could also be surprising for a greedy Mongol enemy, but by the time you get to this costly combo, Mongols can take map control and start pushing your base with Mangudai. So we’ll leave Elephants apart. Steppe Lancers fare good against Hussars but die miserably to Mangudai fire with only 1 base pierce armor. Even Tatars, who can get to Elite Steppe Lancers with 6 pierce armor, have access to much better army compositions to deal with Mongols. We’ll leave these also apart and start considering the scout line. A wise decision is to consider your own Light Cavalry, who are fast, cheap and arrow resistant against an army composed of Cav Archers, Light Cavalry and Siege. For this matchup, Hussars and Light Cavalry depend enormously on getting Plate Barding Armor and Blast Furnace to be at least effective when fighting Mangudai. I’ll show it in numbers, considering the most important upgrades and particular bonuses. The table below shows the matchup between a Light Cav/Hussar and an Elite Mangudai when they have to kill each other: The 3rd column numbers should be as low as possible, and the 4th column as high as possible. Looking at it, we know that a group of 20+ Mangudai will certainly 1 shot kill our Hussar, but the latter are cost effective against them. Hussars are way faster than Mangudai, but until they cover up the 7 range of Mangudai, they can be hit more than once by them. The better the Mangudai micro, the heavier the losses will be. The Table shows that Hussar effectiveness goes down when upgrades are missing. I consider that all civs mentioned in the table could fare fine against Mangudai if they engage them alone, except Teutons, of course. With equal numbers, Mangudai will always win, but Hussars are easier to mass and gold unit replacement will always be more punishing. The problem is that Mangudais’ bodyguards, Mongol Hussars, will stand between our Hussars and the Mangudai. We can see now how they fare against them: As we can see, only Winged Hussars and maybe Tatar and Bulgarian Hussar and Malian Farimba Light Cav could be considered against Mongol Hussars 1v1. This is the first example of how well Mangudai and Hussars complement each other. A couple of discounts in units (Berbers, Magyars), techs (Chinese, Burgundians, Spanish) and not needing to research some of the techs (Turks, Indians, Cumans, “Franks”, Hussar lacking civs) can be considered, but, all in all, it is an army composition that, with Hussars/Light Cav alone, is difficult to counter, if there’s not a huge number advantage. It is also important to notice that you can in many cases risk losing lots of Hussars to snipe Mongol siege, and Blast Furnace becomes very important in these cases. The difference can be huge and may become the result of killing a treb or not: Now we’ll get to the knight-line. The biggest issue when it comes to heavy cavalry is that both Mangudai and Hussars are faster than them (except Cumans!!!). Mangudai can hit-and-run forever (even though the speed difference is not high) and by the time they’re chased, Cavaliers/Paladins will have suffered a lot of damage, or even be dead. See the Table below: As we can see, now the Paladin upgrade becomes very important (except for PBA lacking Celts) due to the 3 base pierce armor of Paladins (Cavaliers have just 2 pierce armor and -40HP). That makes the difference of being able to chase the Mangudai army, who’d need a very intensive micro or even to stop the push to deal with a Paladin army. Cavaliers (except Sicilians) and Celt Paladins are less dangerous because of the many less shots for a kill, but here and there we can find a bonus that can become painful for a exchange of units (upgrading Hussar and Mangudai is much more expensive than upgrading Cavaliers even with Stirrups, Farimba, Hauberk or Szlachta privileges). A very good complement to Paladins are Skirmishers, who can deal tons of damage to Mangudai while Paladins tank arrow fire. In this case, Paladins should try to kill as many Hussars as possible, who pose a threat to Skirmishers. If Paladins or Cavaliers catch the Mangudai, both units will quickly kill them, but the cost effectiveness here will be much worse. Again numbers and an insane micro will be needed to take a fight like this effectively. Mongol Hussars can delay the chase of Mangudai and gain time for them to kill Cavaliers and Paladins. Camels are a very important unit for this matchup, since they get a big bonus attack against both Mongol units. They are also much cheaper than Paladins to upgrade, and can chase Mangudai. The issue is that 1) Not all civs get access to Camels 2) Their base armor is 0/0, thus leaving them vulnerable to attacks. Looking at numbers and seeing how easy they are to mass, Camels pose a threat to the Mongol army composition. Bloodlines lacking Heavy Camels will die easier, but they are also easier to tech into (especially smooth is 41F 45G costing Byzantine Camels). To finish with cavalry, I have considered all the rest of Unique Units, but some of them have not been included. Cataphracts are too expensive to tech into and are vulnerable to arrow fire. They would fare excellent against Hussars and Siege, but Mangudai just would outrun and kill them (2 pierce armor). Leitis are far weaker to Mangudai (1 pierce armor). Mamelukes are still weaker (0 pierce armor), and even with their amazing performance against Hussars, I haven’t considered them. Coustillers and Konniks have potential to deal damage, but again, just 2 base pierce armor doesn’t justify their cost against Mangudai. I will consider though, Tarkans, Boyars, Keshiks and Magyar Huszars. The first three have more than 2 pierce armor, and Huszars, apart from beating Mongol Hussars 1v1, have a huge bonus attack against siege that could give an end to the Mongol push: Tarkans and Keshiks have a similar performance, with the former resisting a more arrow fire while attacking a bit slower. Tarkans have the advantage of not being Castle dependant after Marauders has been researched. Their main advantage is that they are also good raiders and a 3-4 group of them can harass Mongol economy. Their main disadvantage is a big weakness to Camels (Mongols can easily tech into them). Keshiks generate gold while fighting, what is good while engaging Hussars. Boyars have an amazing performance against Hussars, just taking 1 damage from them! Their issue is that they’re a bit slower than the knight line and thus more difficult to chase Mangudai. Magyar Huszars can replace standard Hussars, and become trash units after researching Corvinian army. Their biggest advantage is killing a Siege Ram in 11 hits, a Siege Onager in 4 hits and an unpacked Trebuchet in 7 hits. Infantry units: I won’t delay much with infantry units, because they are mostly shredded by this composition. Their lack of speed guarantees them taking shots to death from Mangudai and Mongols switching their push if they find an inexpugnable fortress. Eagles (especially Incas and Mayans) can absorb arrow fire from Mangudai and snipe Siege (especially Aztecs). Huskarls are also great at soaking arrows, but Hussars are already prepared to deal with them, so Goths should include Halbs on their composition and flood them constantly. Mongols would need to micro Mangudai so that they aim for Halbs while Hussars deal with Huskarls. Serjeants and Champskarls get 8 pierce armor, but that only means soaking a higher number of arrows before dying. Pointy boys (Halberdiers, Pikemen and Kamayuks) could deal well with Hussars trying to snipe siege under Castles, but they’ll quickly die to Mangudai. Last mention goes for Samurai, because they get +12 bonus attack against Mangudai, but they will never get to chase them. Here’s a Table with the particular units I have considered. Disclaimer: I’m not saying that these units are effective to stop a Mongol push. Eagles would take the same time as Boyars to chase Mangudai, while being much weaker to both Mongol units (especially Hussars). The best microed Eagles should go first for the raid and then to see if they can snipe an unprotected siege unit. That’s all. For the Goth flood, Huskarls and Halberdiers should be spammed, and push back Mongol units. If the Mongol player loses attention for a second, he could lose all his army. The rest of the units are shown, just to give an example of how effective they could become if they happen to engage Hussars or Mangudai, but it’s likely that the best they could do, as I said, is protecting siege under a Castle from Mongol Hussar sniping. When it comes to ranged units, we must not forget that both Mongol units get “only” 4 pierce armor when FU, so there’s room for some units to shine against them. I’ll show you the table and then analyze the chance to use them or not: First of all, these units alone can’t beat the Mongol composition. Most of them are weak to Siege and some of them are not cost effective. They need a meatshield (mainly Hussars, Cavalry or Halberdiers). Arbalesters have the advantage of outranging Mangudai, thus getting the first hit. As it can be seen, a mass of 20 of these units can one shot kill Mangudai. They also have the advantage of being upgraded before, cheaper and faster than Mangudai. Especially for civs who rely strongly on them and don’t have a top cavalry support (Vikings, Vietnamese, Britons, Ethiopians,..) massing 40 arbalester could do the trick if you aim to reduce Mangudai numbers. Of course, Mongols will call for the aid of Hussars, and that’s where your meatshield should enter. Stable units and Pikes/Halbs can be put in the front of them to engage with Hussars. Micro is crucial and a good Mongol Onager shot can be devastating, but for some of these civs BBCs are also available to deal with the Onager before Mangudai kill them. Ethiopian bonus is good, but Britons firing from 11 range is the best archer-line against Mongols. Here we can also find a use for Persian Trashbows, who, costing only wood, can help a lot hurting units (3 damage each shot). We also find “stronger” Arbalesters in the form of Unique units. Britons’ Longbowman, with their 11 attack and 12 range, can be an issue for Mangudai, and hurt badly Hussars before they cover the gap. Here, infantry meatshield in front of Longbows can work well, since they’ll still be out of range of Mangudai. Chukonus have a difficult micro and lower range but strong power, so they must be supported by Chinese Cavalry (I suggest Camels or Light Cavalry here). Plumed Archers will resist better arrows, but their low attack will leave them vulnerable to Hussars. Rattans will fare much better, with their amazing pierce armor and 11 attack. They also have a better meatshield than Mayans in Light Cavalry. But the Gold medal here goes to Genoese Crossbowmen, who have a huge bonus attack against both Mongol units, while tanking hits a bit better than Arbalesters, Longbowmen or Chukonus. No spoiler here, Italians have a great answer to Mongols in Genoese Xbows. Skirmishers are the main common counter to Mangudai. They outrange them (or, if they lack Bracer, at least equal their 7 range), are easy to tech into and to mass, and hurt them badly. To engage Mangudai, nevertheless, you need NUMBERS. 15 Skirms can’t fight 15 Mangudai. You need lots of them. Here, Mongol Hussars become a problem, because they kill easily Skirms, while tanking fire and not allowing you to aim for Mangudai. That’s why they need something in front of them (probably a gold unit, although again your own Hussars could work). Skirms, as arbs, can also be used under your Castle to kill Mongol units trying to snipe your BBCs or Trebs. Watch out for enemy Onagers, who can shred a whole Skirm army. In this category also fall Genitours, who can also chase Mangudai and have a big attack bonus against them. Heavy Cavalry Archers need to be considered here. Although weaker to siege than Mangudai, can effectively be used to kill the Mongol composition. They are easier to mass, and usually strong HCA civs have also access to their own Hussar, so it would become a mirror strategy, in which you should be careful protecting your siege and preventing your HCA from getting hit by an Onager. The criteria for HCA consideration include Thumb Ring, Bloodlines and Husbandry, and only lacking one of these (Bracer, Parthian Tactics, Ring Archer Armor). The best performance against Mongols is for Magyars, Tatars, Turks, Indians, Japanese and Saracens. A HCA only lacking RAA (Huns, Bulgarians) will be better than a HCA lacking PT (Spanish, Vietnamese, Chinese, Berber, Lithuanian), and both will be better than lacking Bracer (Cumans, Persians). But I still feel that any of the civs who get most of the HCA upgrades can mirror the Mongol composition without the issue of depending on a Castle to mass their HCA. In the category of “Cavalry Archers” we find Camel Archers, who are Mangudais’ kryptonite. With 12 attack, a bonus against Cavalry Archers, and discounted FU Hussars, Berbers become the “anti-Mongol” in late game. We also get two tanks that can be a nasty surprise for Mongols: War Wagons and Elephant Archers. Both can take a million hits from Mongols while hitting them hard. They’re a bit more difficult to mass, but, if Mongols had the time to upgrade everything, it is supposed that you’ll also have the time to mass your UUs. Just be careful with early raids and build enough Castles to support unit production. Finally, we must pay attention to gunpowder. Hand Cannoneers, Janissaries, Conquistadors and Hussite Wagons hit hard Mongol units. Of course they have a couple of issues: HCs are equal in range with Mangudai (except Shatagni Indian HC), and their durability is not high. Conquistadors can be microed, but Mangudai outrange them, and both Mongol units are faster than them. Finally, Janissaries seem a sensible option, being tankier than HCs and outranging Mangudai. They are food/gold demanding, but Turk Hussars are easy to tech into and resist Mangudai fire well. Hussite Wagons, as siege, are not supposed to be used against Mangudai, but in fact their performance against them is quite good. Halberdiers can support them to deal with Hussars, who deal 10 damage to them. Wagons are also outranged by Mangudai, so they’re less effective. Rest of units: Monks will have a limited use. In mid Castle Age, when Mangudai numbers are low, they could help delaying both early raids/pushes and Mangudai massing. Later, when Hussars are included into the Mongol army, they will become useless. Rams and Scorpions will be shredded by Mongols. The same goes for the rest of siege Unique Units. But Onagers, Trebuchets and BBCs can be useful. Since Mangudai only get 7 range and will mostly be tightly packed, a good Onager shot can hurt the mass, for other units to finish the job. It’s likely that the Onager will only have the chance to shoot once, before Mongols melt it. BBCs can be used also to hit the mass of Mangudai from longer distance. They should be well protected both from Hussars and Mangudai, and, if hurt, vills behind can repair them. They can attack buildings and can be used as a bait for Mangudai to come closer. Turks’ artillery for a longer range and Houfnice upgrade for Bohemians could help with the survival of BBCs. Trebuchets can be used in the same way, although less effective against units. It’s interesting to see the effect of Treb benefitting UTs (Briton Warwolf, Japanese Kataparuto, Tatar Timurid Siegecraft), which could be helpful with the role of Trebs. TL;DR: These are the units that could be used in late game against Mongols. Units in italics mean that they are not so effective or only situational. Units in bold are good options or better than average units for the fight. Notice than some of the civs don’t even get a unit in bold. That means that they should try to avoid Mongols to get to Imperial Age and upgrade their units freely. In the Notes column I added the strat to follow: And all of this started when someone asked if Turk or Tatar HCA were better against Mongols! Well, I know it’s been a long post. I hope you liked it and every feedback and further analysis from more experienced players will be welcome. Don’t be too harsh on me if I made a mistake. :-) Have a nice weekend! [link] [comments] |
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